Should You Use Indian SAP Recruiters?

by Shaun Snapp on May 13, 2012

What This Article Covers

  • Understanding India
  • Negotiating with Indian recruiters.
  • Getting the story from an Indian recruiter.
  • Communicating with Indian recruiters.

Background

I wanted to start this article by saying that it is difficult to find trustworthy recruiters in general. After years of dealing with recruiters, I would estimate that around one in six are actually worth dealing with. However, after dealing with recruiters for around nine years, I have determined that there is one group of easily identify-able group of recruiters that are far worse as recruiters, both ethically, in their negotiation, and in their communication than the average. This is Indian recruiters. This article is really for independent contractors who are from the US, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, i.e. the developed world. For those independent contractors that are Indian or from a third world county, you know the score already, and don’t need me to point out things that are obvious to you.

Understanding India

In order to understand Indian recruiters, is important to understand India. I have been to India and to Pakistan, and have done reading on the history of the region. Essentially, India and Pakistan were bronze age societies prior to colonialization by the British. Colonialization was begun by the East India Trading Company (without authorization from the British Government), and was eventually taken over by the British Government. India has an enormous population (either soon to or already larger than China’s), and while the British brought some infrastructure, such as a rail system and postal system, most of the country remained undeveloped long after India won independence from the British. While India’s independence is a source of national pride for Indians,the country actually regressed. While the British were in India for their own advantages, the British were better administrators than the Indians that took over from them (since independence and up to the current day) and were less corrupt. India sits at 95 out of 180 countries on the Worldwide Corruption scale. (the US sits at 24, dropping roughly ten spots during the Bush Administration and not recovering our position a single space during the Obama Administration)

India is marked by extreme income inequality and racial inequality. India has a much large population than it has resources (there have been some attempts at population control, but they have been fiercely fought by the country’s Muslim population). This means that India is one of the most competitive places to grow up in, and makes the people naturally aggressive negotiators. For instance, in Indian universities, the competition is so intense that there are stories of a large number of pages ripped out of textbooks in the Indian university library, which of course prevents the other students from obtaining the answer. Indian ethics center around the family, and then become rapidly weaker outside of that unit. This is the common ethics in third world nations where there is great scarcity. This hopefully provides the proper mindset of Indian immigrants that then come to developed countries.

Negotiating with Indian Recruiters

Indian recruiters take their background in India and apply it to their approaches to recruiting. I am often contacted about contracts, however on almost every occasion, the rates offered by Indian recruiters are lower than the rates I am offered by non-Indian recruiters. This is interesting, because the final client is typically the same types of companies. I even received a lowball offer when the eventual client was a major consulting company (which I refuse to work for), and the major consulting companies charge at the top of the market in their billing rate. This Indian recruiters also waited until deep into the process to tell me that the prime contractor was Accenture.

I have concluded from this that Indian recruiters are simply attempting to take a higher percentage of the rate. This can be partially attributed to greed, but I think also relates to the fact that India has no history of respecting labor rights or labor’s value add to the process. Many Indians are treated terribly by other Indians and unless you are part of the┬áprivileged classes it is simply accepted. The US has a conception of the worker being an important component of production, India by in large does not. The US had at one time much stronger unions (now down to roughly 12%). India never had this. Those who would like to paper over this fact will point to Indian’s labor laws, with 50 national laws protecting labor, and more state laws. However, these laws are not well-respected by international labor bodies, and secondly, few laws in India are enforced. The upshot of all of this is that the Indian culture is for the person with the “gold” to be primary, it is considered ethical to get whatever can be taken from labor. Any person negotiating with an Indian recruiter or rates or other contractual details needs to understand this background. Indians in India prefer not to work for Indian companies, but instead prefer to work for US or European multinationals where they can be treated more fairly.

Getting the Full Story from an Indian Recruiter

I never feel as if I am getting the full story with Indian recruiters. I received an email from an Indian recruiter recently about a project in San Diego. I told him my rate and he said “we could talk about the rate,” which translates into “I can’t meet you rate but I will negotiate you down after you have invested time in discussing the role with me.” Once I got on the phone with him, he tells me “You realize this is a contract to hire position?”

I have no idea why I should have realized that fact, as it was never stated in our email communications. Perhaps this recruiter believed that I had extra sensory perception. I went back to double-check the our emails, and as I had originally thought there was no mention of “contract-to-hire” in the emails. I reject contract-to-hire positions as soon as I receive the email, so I would be surprised if it had gotten past me. After reviewing the email, I told him I would not be interested in the role and that he had clearly left this information out of our email communication, waiting to spring the information on me during a call. I told him to either communicate honestly or to stop emailing me. He never responded to the email. What I have learned is that dishonest people can never be reasoned with. Pushing back on them, simply makes them move on to the next target.

Communicating with Indian Recruiters

Indian recruiters have poor communication skills. This is not simply “some recruiters,” it is instead every single one that I have dealt with. This should not be surprising, as some Indians speak several languages, and while India’s official language, or at least the language of commerce and education is English, Indians will always have a second Indian language (there are different estimates of how many languages are commonly spoken in India. Sometimes I am told 13, other times Indians laugh at this estimate and they there are hundreds), however the upshot is that Indians spend far less time speaking English than do people in “real” English speaking countries. This also extends to writing, and it is well-known that Indians do not communicate in English very well, and in fact is one reason that the quality of documentation has fallen so much on IT projects. My view is that India does not have a very strong written culture, and that the focus is much more on verbal communication. As an example, when I worked at i2 Technologies (a company started by an Indian — Sanjiv Sidhu and Ken Sharma, two con men, Sanjiv Sidhu walked out with over $1 billion while i2 eventually cratered and was eventually purchased by JDA). i2 Technologies had a large percentage of Indian employees and the willfully poor communication on the part of Indians, no matter their rank or position was one of company weaknesses that eventually brought i2 down. For instance, an Indian director received an email that was not to their advantage, they would simply not reply to the email. Even if the issue was quite important, the email would sit unanswered. If directly confronted, the response was always that they were “so busy.” A few US born workers tried this stunt, usually pre-sales consultants or product managers who I caught lying to i2 salesmen and were not interested in having a conversation with anyone knowledgeable on the topic. However, the problem was far more prevalent with Indians.

Communication is one of the most important features of being a recruiter, which is why I openly question whether Indians can be effective recruiters outside of India. Why we have recruiters who are not first language speakers in the country in which they are recruiting is a very interesting question. Certainly, Indians this may not apply to Indians that were raised in the US or England, but the vast majority of Indians working in recruiting, and working in these countries in general grew up in India. Therefore, the Indian culture, use of language, etc.. is what applies currently.

Conclusion

I have stopped responding to Indian recruiters due to the reasons listed above. First, the trust is not there because I don’t feel comfortable negotiating with people with third world backgrounds, secondly I never feel as if I am getting a straight story, and thirdly I have never actually run into an Indian recruiter that was any good at the job. This may sound harsh, but if I were to try to work in recruiting in say Russia, and where Russian was my second language and where I did not understand the cultural norms and could not communicate properly with candidates (and where I was also trying to cheat them), I think others would be right in dismissing me as unqualified to do the job. I have wasted plenty of hours talking to Indian recruiters, and even explaining solutions to them, and it has really been a waste of my time. Therefore, my viewpoint has been shaped by real experiences, and remarkably consistent experiences. When I point out ethical and communication issues with Indian recruiters, this is not a small sample, and this does not apply to some of them…it applies to every one that I have worked with. This is why I both recommend to other independent consultants to ignore emails from Indian recruiters, but also for Indians to get out of recruiting, and move into jobs where they have a better fit between the skills they offer and the demands of the job.

References

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_labour_law

Questions or Comments

No doubt some Indians will read this message and become offended. Even Indians who know in their heart that it is true and would never use an Indian recruiter themselves. Comments that protest this article under politically correct ideals will probably not be approved. They are tedious, and no one wants to read them. Articles on this blog are designed to describe reality, they are not designed to please all interest groups that comes into contact with them. However, comments that add something to the conversation will be approved, even if they disagree with the article.

If you have something insightful to add, please comment below as to your experiences. If you would like to send it to us to help us build our database of contracts, you can email the contract to info@scmfocus.com.

Shaun Snapp

Shaun Snapp is a long time supply chain planning software consultant, author & as well as the Managing Editor at SCM Focus. He focuses on both SAP APO as well as best of breed applications for demand, supply and production planning.

Latest posts by Shaun Snapp (see all)

{ 47 comments… read them below or add one }

Alex June 26, 2012 at 1:41 am

Completely agree. You are rights for 10000000000 %. Thank You.

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Kumar Patel August 3, 2012 at 3:46 am

if you use slumdog pimps ( recruiters ) to cold-call people for jobs – where they lie about their true names, the position, the salary, and where they are actually located ( not where they claim they are calling from, usually within the US ), don’t expect any professional people to respond to these very unprofessional solicitations

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Vishnu August 3, 2012 at 3:48 am

when I get a call from an indian recruiter, their are naturally two ways you must go:
1) immediately hang up on them
2) spend a little bit of time toying with them and harassing them, and waste as much of their time as possible

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Dolores August 3, 2012 at 7:40 am

Thank you for saying what needed to be said. So many people are scared to do this.

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Helen August 3, 2012 at 12:05 pm

I just push the delete button on such recruiters . I really don’t get this idea of asking for the full SSN either.

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Wakjob August 3, 2012 at 7:13 pm

Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor

Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Apple – Indian national and former Goldman Sachs board member Rajat Gupta charged with leaking Intel and Apple secrets over the phone.
Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Barclays Bank – UK executive management was corrupted by Shriti Vadera, the Indian-origin economist. His advice led Barclay’s CEO and other execs to rig Libor interest rates.
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
Circuit City – Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
Cisco – destroyed by Indian labor, laid off 55,000 in 2012, going down the drain.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Computer Associates – Former CEO Sanjay Kumar, an Indian national, sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for accounting fraud.
Deloitte – 2010 – this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
Dell – call center (closed in India)
Delta call centers (closed in India)
Duke University – Massive scientific fraud by Indian national Dr. Anil Potti discovered in 2012.
Enron, WorldCom, Qwest, and Tyco all hired large numbers of foreign workers from India before their scandals.
Fannie Mae – Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty and sent to prison.
Goldman Sachs – Kunil Shah, VP & Managing Director – GS had to be bailed out by US taxpayers for $550 BILLION.
GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HP – Got out of the PC hardware business in 2011 and can’t compete with Apple’s tablets. HP was taken over by Indians and Chinese in 2001. So much for ‘Asian’ talent!
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
IBM bill collecting system for Austin, TX failed in 2012 written by Indians at IBM
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
Intel – Trade secret stolen by Indian national Biswamohan Pani in 2012.
JetStar Airways computer failure brings down Christchurch airport on 9/17/11. JetStar is owned by Quantas – which is know to have outsourced to India, Inc.
JP Morgan – Outsourced subsidiary & IT integration to India in 2009 for $400 million, lost $2 billion in 2012.
Kodak: Outsourced to India in 2006, filed for bankruptcy in Jan, 2012.
Lehman (Jasjit Bhattal ruined the company. Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
London Olympics 2012 Security – Botched by India’s G4S
Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
MIPS – Taken over by Indian national Sandeep Vij in 2010, being sold off in 2012.
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
MyNines – A startup founded and run by Indian national Apar Kothari went belly up after throwing millions of America’s VC $ down the drain.
Nomura Securities – (In 2011 “struggling to compete on the world stage”). No wonder because Jasjit Bhattal formerly of failed Lehman ran it. See Lehman above.
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
PepsiCo – Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi’ watch.
Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas – See AirBus above
Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
Reebok – Massive fraud and theft in India second in size only to Satyam fraud
Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
SAP – Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
Singapore airlines (IT functions taken over in 2009 by TCS, website trashed in August, 2011)
Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
State of New York – Hired Indian-infested CSC in 1998 to build a new system, was 33 months late and $166 million over budget, a cost overrun of 47 percent. And then the system failed. So much for “they can do it better, cheaper, faster”. CSC also holds the sole contract for NC’s Medicaid system redesign. That project is hundreds of millions over budget and years late. India, Inc. is taking its time to maximize the amount it can grift out of America.
State of Texas failed IBM project.
Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
UK’s NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
Union Bank of California – Cancelled Finacle project run by India’s InfoSys in 2011.
United – call center (closed in India)
US Navy F-18 jet crashes into Virginia apartment building on 4/6/12 after outsourcing F-18 work to India’s Tata.
Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).

I could post the whole list here but I don’t want to crash any servers.

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Shaun Snapp August 5, 2012 at 10:51 pm

Very impressive list. I think this needs to be more discussed, when you begin to interact with a third world nation, you can begin to get third world standards.

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Anonymous August 4, 2012 at 5:47 pm

yes, i am an Indian with over 10 years exp. in IT.
Name withheld for anonymity.

i will not comment whether this is biased or racial etc.
but few facts.

1. University – paper stuff. What absurd thing. i bought m text books.

2. Communication. there is accent different and there are issues. But it may be better compared to people from countries who don’t have English as first language.

3. Again on your conclusion, you are getting stereotyped and accusing almost a billion and more people. You may not have the skill is selecting the right person.

I don’t want to be a troll. but your article is biased and generalizes you lack of selecting the right people to work with.

also you don’t know India.

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Shaun Snapp August 5, 2012 at 10:50 pm

Yes, but your experiences do not contradict the experiences that have been communicated to me by others. Also, it really is not a matter of dispute that third world countries, which have great shortages and which are poor are low trust environments. In India the competition is so intense that it promotes behavior one does not tend to see if there are more resources to go around. There are many standards problems in India, and the issues with corruption are not denied by any Indians that I speak with. The difference is that Indians tend to not like to go on the record and have this information published. This is a confrontational subject and surely is not what any Indian wants to read, however, people in the US deserve to be warned about Indian recruiters and it is my right to communicate the very poor experiences that I have had dealing with them. I also question why Indian recruiters in the US exist. Again, recruiters should have good language skills, and Indian recruiters I have worked for do not. Your comparison against other groups is a very poor argument because there are plenty of native English speakers who can do the job of recruiters….they are called natural born American citizens. H1-B places were opened for the supposed shortage of IT talent. Do we really need Indians to come over from India to do the job of recruiting poorly, and outside of the the norms and laws of the US (several Indian recruiting contracts I have evaluated, such as from Systechi have outrageous clauses, in fact I just recently had two recruiters at Systechi lie to me about whether the master services agreement is the main legal document when a dispute arises – this is the first time I have ever had a fundamental legal false statement made to be by a recruiter, and it was an Indian recruiter) to do a job which is very easy to do and for which there is no shortage? It simply makes no sense.

As for your comments regarding generalizing, generalizing is part of knowledge development. You many not like the results of my analysis, but I have both been to India, and have worked with Indians for 14 years. My comments about how bad Indian recruiters are comes from interacting with them (I have never actually accepted a contract from a recruiter, but the one Indian I did take a very short term contract from was late in payment). It also comes from traveling quite a bit to third world countries. I am also not generalizing about a billion people, I am taking about Indian recruiters, which I am quite qualified to comment on. Also, every American IT contractor I have spoken with also dislikes Indian recruiters. So for a person who does not know “India” it sure seems as if a lot of people I work with have had the exact same experiences as I have had.

I understand as an Indian you don’t want this information to get out, but nothing you have written really provides information on the issue or contradicts what I have written. Essentially, your interests are aligned against the article, because you are Indian and you apparently would prefer that Americans not be warned about Indian recruiters, I suppose so they can be taken advantage of by them, and the Indian recruiters can benefit. However, most US workers are aligned against your interests.

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Maderchods Suck December 22, 2012 at 5:27 am

whatever, go home and stay Raja, we don’t need your type here in the U.S. Go back to snakecharming and ear cleaning your poo-joo n**ger

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Paul August 5, 2012 at 6:05 pm

I agree with just about every one of your theses in this article. I am an American and work in IT Strategic Sourcing. We all know how the Indians DESTROYED IT here in the USA for most Americans involved in it and I have found that they’re some of the biggest LIARS, CHEATS and THIEVES I’ve ever had the gross misfortune to deal with. I think much of what they do to Americans is their way of retaliating for being under the thumb of the White Man, i.e the British for so long.
They are now destroying the staffing business here in the USA, too. Oh, not just for IT, but for accounting, procurement, HR services, etc. Unfortunately, it seems as if American companies who compete against them in these spaces may be at a disadvantage when it comes to rates because the INDIANS undercut by so much that client companies have a hard time resisting the bargain rates.

I have become increasingly HOSTILE to Indian recruiters who call me now. In fact, short of cursing at them or using truly vulgar epithets, I do my best to insult them into NOT contacting me again.

One thing your blog failed to mention is a tendency of theirs that I have seen a fair amount of lately and that is their transmitting of resumes WITHOUT the permission of the candidate. This happened to me recently for a position with NASDAQ where an Indian recruiter sent my resume WITHOUT my permission and created a problem for a legitimate American owned staffing agency when they submitted me. Needless to say, I wasn’t interviewed due to the conflict of who sent what first.

I live in the Northeast and I have also seen and been the victim of Indian THIRD PARTY recruiters resume shopping paperwork to prime vendors with client companies. The drill is similar to what you describe but they give the candidate to another agency at say $45/hr. bill the next agency $60/hr. and the prime vendor bills the client $90 per hour. Everyone in line gets a piece of the candidate who is the one who is being paid substandard wages.

I personally DO NOT believe there is a shortage of qualified American IT talent. What there is is a shortage of Americans who are willing to work for THIRD WORLD wages here in the USA. The companies that do this should be ashamed and their tactics should be widely publicized so that Americans know what other so-called Americans are doing TO THEM and not FOR THEM.

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Shaun Snapp August 5, 2012 at 10:40 pm

Very good Paul, I think you added a lot of good information to the discussion. One of the major problems is that India has no history of respecting labor as is described in this article. http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15760

In India there is no concept that the person below you has a right to a certain standard of living, so the Indian perspective is essentially elitist. If one looks at where Indians reside politically when they come to the US, almost all the Indian economists are highly conservative, and focus on publishing work that is highly slavish to concentrated power. The idea of not maximizing their own profits, to break from the status quo, is not accepted, because it means being less successful.

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MrX August 6, 2012 at 5:34 am

I happened to run into this article.

I’m Indian and I have been living outside of the subcontinent lately (quite a few years). I may be a somewhat atypical Indian though for several reasons I will not go into here.

I must commend Shaun’s power of observation, especially the bit about ethics being very family centered among Indians. And yes, it depletes at a rapid rate outside the “core network”. The British have exploited that Indian trait in their “divide and rule” policy, to strengthen their hold on India.

In general we Indians have an integrity deficit. It comes from this flawed sense of ethics, I think.

People in positions of power are eager to do unethical things privately, in support of those belonging to their “network” (be it a family-centered one or a coterie-based one). This is how crookedness and wrong-doing gets ingrained within Indian organizations. I thought this was generally true only within India, but soon found that many of the so-called more educated “global indians” retain the trait. The feature is stronger among those global indians who hang out with more of the same kind, going to global indian parties, attending global indian schools, living in global indian neighbourhoods, and keeping their mind closed. This is very unfortunate because I found profound wisdom and openness to debate in the Indian scholastic tradition. None of it can be seen in the daily lives of the average Indian, however ! That is truly a tragedy for mankind.

Since ethics takes a backseat, whistleblowers have a tough time in India. Harassment of whistleblowers using thuggery, the police, the courts etc is a key feature of the unethical Indian in positions of power.

I have experienced this first hand with an Indian organization and was amazed at the depths to which they would stoop. If Shaun writes back (the email address is good) I will gladly share some data points… because, drawing parallels, connecting the dots and distilling events into succinct and valuable observations, is the most important way to make things better !

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Tim J. August 6, 2012 at 12:12 pm

The first thing that everyone needs to realize the vast majority of these so-called “recruiters” are NOT in the US. They work out of call centers in India. Read this:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Gk0gKjX5fK4J:www.workforce.com/article/20070824/NEWS02/308249990+indian+recruiters&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

It basically works like, the consulting company errr. body shop subcontracts out their recruiting to a company in India. They take the body shops’s name and address and slap it on their emails so when you get it you think they are here. They have VoIP phones programmed with US phone numbers so it appears the calls are coming from inside the US.

This is not the worst of it though – they SHARE resumes amongst each other. I have yet to get a concrete explanation about it but I know they are doing it because I track where people find my resume. On any number of job sites I have my contact information hidden AND I don’t have my real name nor phone number. Guess what? When they contact me they have the fake contact info. When I ask where they got it, they say “its in our database”. What exactly does that mean?

For the finale they rates are abysmal, always lower than everyone else and always looking to get over. Many of these companies are preferred vendors because they incorporate using their wife’s name and they are list as Asian so they double dip on the minority thing – an Asian female. YAY! Thats like winning the lottery on getting on the preferred vendor list.

I warn everybody here to NEVER to sign any of their contracts without having someone who does contracts for a living read it over. Though it will cost you some money some of them have all kinds of odd clauses looking to get over.

You have been warned.

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Paul C August 23, 2012 at 7:02 pm

Regarding the employment agreements at INDIAN and OTHER IT and Temp Staffing Agencies.

As a Contracts Professional I reviewed my own employment agreement with ARTECH INFORMATION SERVICES and found some pretty sneaky clauses that I successfully negotiated out. I have also negotiated several other agreements for friends involved in IT here in NJ and was also successful in removing clauses NOT to their benefit.

I will be happy to assist posters here (for a small fee) with these agreements and for the time being, can be reached at airbornehistorian@yahoo.com.

For those of you who are not familiar with contracts language and the enforceability of certain clauses, as well as the which state’s law governs disputes, simply signing an employment agreement places you at a severe disadvantage, as Technologists who worked for ARTECH INFO SERVICES found out after the first month when they realized they were only paid $10 per hour for their work. ARTECH retained the remainder of their rate for the first 30 days claiming that client billing cycles and payment terms made that action a necessity. This clause was one I successfully negotiated out of MY employment agreement. There were others and some are the ones that are most commonly open for abuse by the staffing agencies.

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Shaun Snapp August 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

Very Interesting Paul.

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Dee August 6, 2012 at 6:07 pm

1) Watch out for made up names
2) Never expect that they fight on behalf of the candidate
3) Expect surprises, like 35 hours of pay for a 40 hour week
4) The women are generally better, but always seem at a disadvantage
5) The lower the ethnic group that person comes from in the Indian social structure, the more likely you will truly run into a ‘Sammy Glick’ (as in Budd Schulberg’s portrait of a social striver circa 1930s, ‘What Makes Sammy Run’. Steer clear of them, they will eat your breakfast and lunch without apology and never, ever respond to emails.

The combination of poor communication and lack of responsiveness to written communication is famous for killing companies with high percentages of Indian-acculturated staff. BTW, beware healthcare.

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Tired Of Indian Recruiters! August 22, 2012 at 9:45 pm

THANK YOU for starting starting this thread. I’ve been in SAP/IT for 15 years and for the past year I’ve become extremely fed up with the Indian recruiters.

I am 2nd generation Indian and until about 5 years ago, I loved everything about India. Now working with many Indians and working through so many Indian Recruiters, dealing with Indian IT Directors, I am fed up. I feel like I never want to go back to my own country and feel ashamed that my background is Indian.

Most consultants do not know that I understand and speak Hindi and on too many occasions I’ve heard negative remarks about their co-workers, about the US, about how they feel “gorey” (Americans) are stupid. And on 3 occasions I’ve worked for a client where the IT director was Indian and all three times, I had to step down and leave the contract due to unethical business practices they were conducting.

It is even more difficult for Indians to work for other Indians because there is definitely a huge lack of respect. I loved my career for years and I’ve always have worked hard in staying ahead in my area of expertise, but since the past year, I am appalled and disgusted by this industry.

Anyway, I could go on and on…but wanted to vent a bit and thank you for starting this thread – its made my day to know that there are many others that share the same feeling. I wish that something could be done but unfortunately I don’t think there is a solution to this.

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Shaun Snapp August 23, 2012 at 8:38 pm

I wanted to applaud you for taking a realistic and balanced perspective. There are kind of two ways of approaching criticism. One is to simply deny the criticism. This article is not criticism of Indians overall, although some have decided to take it that way. Its a criticism of Indian recruiters. All of us come from some group or country and there are always good and bad aspects of what a person is from. As an example, I am American. However, does this mean that I support US foreign and military policy? No I don’t believe it does. I am embarrassed by my country’s foreign policy and unending aggressive militarism and consider it unacceptable and morally wrong. It is immaterial if it is the policy of “my country.” I do not make excuses for something which is wrong, simply because it springs from my country. Abusive contracts that are so frequent in Indian recruiting companies hurt Indians as well as Americans. The way to mitigate any problem is to honestly address it, expose it and make what was once private, public. This is why I have published the exact clauses from companies like Systechi. However if Indians support Indian recruiting practices simply because they are Indian also, then the criticism can be painted as unfair or bigoted. The best way to continue to abuse is to state that the criticism itself is the problem. This is why highly controlling institutions such as The Church of Scientology and in the Soviet Union, members were essentially not allowed to voice criticism. Critics themselves were singled out as the problem.

There are many things that are simply wrong, and averting one’s eyes or making excuses or defending the indefensible, simply because the inequity is aligned with one in some way is a recipe for the continuation of abuse. You understand this. So I thank you again for your comment.

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Paul C August 23, 2012 at 6:43 pm

An article at DICE just published contains news from MEG WHITMAN, CEO of H-P and erstwhile GOP candidate for Governor of CA that H-P will be laying off ANOTHER 27K employees worldwide with 9,000 of the victims being from the USA. At the same time, she announced that ALL of H-P’s India located employees are SAFE.

I am a conservative, tend to vote GOP or Libertarian, but this is a case of the latest CEO of a company in trouble who just can’t figure out how to keep shareholders happy and make the company HUGELY profitable (see APPLE for an example). That said, MORE Americans will UE’ed by another clueless CEO and in the meantime, the INDIANS continue to steal US jobs and the technologies that are transferred.

I have seen it said and written (and I must agree) that the INDIANS are NOT better or smarter than we are. They are simply CHEAPER and less ETHICAL. They will do anything, say anything and STEAL anything they can, just like the Chinese to displace the USA as the technology driving powerhouse of the world economy. And Wall Street, the CEOs and Obama AND Romney are ALL complicit in this.

I do all I can from a sourcing standpoint to minimize the inroads and damage down by Indian IT outsourcing and offshoring. If that makes me a racist, then so be it. I am an American, MY COUNTRY (and my countrymen) come first and if the Indians and the CEOs don’t like it, tough sh*t.

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Shaun Snapp August 23, 2012 at 9:00 pm

I hear you 100% Paul. I have a lot of respect for the skills and knowledge of many Indians I have worked with through the years. There is no doubt that Indians are quite motivated and study quite hard to attain their knowledge. However, the skills of Indians is not entirely the point. There is something that should be understood. This is pointed out by the book “23 Things You Don’t Know About Capitalism.”..and that is that for those in wealthy countries, one’s standard of living is primarily based upon trade policy and immigration policy. US trade policy has hollowed out the middle class by being quite anti-manufacturing. This is where semi-skilled used to be able to make a good income. What companies like IBM, Accenture and so many others are doing is radically increasing income inequality through controlling immigration in a way that maximizes their revenues, but hurts US workers. They don’t care. Their banks are in the Caymen Islands, and they pay a very small amount of taxes. What nationality are they? Who knows, but they have no allegiance to any principle outside of profit maximization.

The US is quickly moving towards a Latin American model, with the wealthy, and then the rest of the country under their thumb. However, labor competition is highly restricted in some professions such as doctors and lawyers that have what amounts to labor unions that protect their interests. When the elite speak of keeping globally competitive, which comes from many conservative economists at places like the University of Chicago, Harvard and Stanford’s Hoover Institute, what they mean is you take a pay cut, and they do not. That is free markets for you, and cushy protected jobs for them. The only conservatives that actually believe in free market principles are those that don’t call the shots. The head of Goldman Sachs once talked about the “free market,” which is ridiculous as Goldman Sachs has never been subjected to one.

Meg Whitman is a megawealthy woman who needed to save some money evidently by hiring undocumented workers in her house. She probably sees herself as some great genius and enjoys reads Ayn Rand. That is quite typical actually. If you jog around Beverly Hills mid day on a weekday, almost all the inhabitants in the residential areas are illegal Mexican gardeners. This is because there is nothing more gratifying to millionaires than saving some money on gardening. These are job creators you see. All of that intense intellectual talent in Beverly Hills. What would we do without them?

Either the the government is motivated to step and remove immigration policy control from the major companies that are presently covering up a great deal of executive incompetence with Indian labor, or we continue down the path we have been following. This pathway leads straight to a Latin American country, with great differences in wealth, low innovation and low growth.

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Dee August 24, 2012 at 7:03 pm

The hollowing out of manufacturing and the making of demanding ‘things’ has at least in part contributed to the mentality of lowballing services. I see it in marketing. It’s become so denigrated because these same C-levels think you can get some ‘digital marketer’ (someone who’s worked on a website, done some SEO and social media for two years) at $40K and make them a director at $75K, assuming they know something about strategy, creative execution, customer behavior and integration. Which of course they don’t. We’re seeing this even in medicine with the substitution of nurse-practitioners for physicians to get costs down. I’m sure there are some really excellent ones out there, but the experience is limited. Whom would you trust? There’s another mentality, called the cheapening of life and individual as costly ‘thing’, that now rules in business, from HBS to India.

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Paul C August 25, 2012 at 4:11 am

Sean,

You seem to be making an argument for a highly regulated and command driven economy and I should tell you that I am a fan of AYN RAND’s, but within certain limits. For one thing, I am NOT an Atheist as she was.

Meg Whitman is symbolic of the hypocrisy that takes place in politics these days, as well as in large companies. As someone said on the DICE blog that is running on the H-P 27 K layoffs that spared India, she is another non-techie MBA running a tech company. Many years ago, when I was first involved with H-P (when they were still primarily and instrumentation company – that business since spun off as AGILENT), I purchased test equipment from them for USAF, USN and USMC Avionics Intermediate Shops. Their gear, as well as instrumentation from TEKTRONIX, FLUKE and SYSTRON DONNER was used in the AIS shops sold to the military for the analysis and repair of aircraft avionics, radar and EW gear. I hated doing business with them even then (back in the 1980s) because they did ALL THEY COULD to NOT comply with the requirements of the FAR regulations and the DFAR Supplements. They would also NOT comply with federal Cost Accounting Standards (CAS), maintaining [falsely] that the equipment they sold to us for resale to the USAF, USN and foreign Military customers was “commercially available” through their catalogs and thus COTS gear not covered by the FAR regulations and that the need not comply with requirements for Certificates of Current Cost & Pricing for procurements (at that time) that were a) non-competitive [because they were sole or single source] and b) that the mods required were NOT substantial enough to remove the products from the realm of COTS, thus making them readily available to ANY customer with the financial wherewithal to pay their going “catalog” [read 'non-discounted' rates].

In they years since, H-P focused one becoming a computer and services company and as we all know, has not succeeded at either. Like so many other companies seeking immediate gratification through incorrectly perceived short term cost reductions, they outsourced thousands of jobs to India, China and other Third World shitholes. One constant refrain from displaced Americans is also the most common and that is, “when all the decent jobs are gone, when the middle class in the USA has been destroyed and subsumed, what and to whom will these large multi-nationals sell to?

They don’t seem to grasp that existential question. Their ST outlook WILL eventually come back to haunt them. Sadly however, the USA we were born into will by then no longer exist.

The government of the USA, regardless of which party is in control has betrayed the American people and like so many others before me, I have belatedly come to realize that we are now dealing with a global ponzi scheme and those of us who are NOT at the very tip of the pyramid have been unceremoniously relegated to Dante’s Third Ring of Hell. We did not choose this and I now fear we are powerless to prevent it.

Just today, I received THREE calls from recruiters (1 Indian, 1 Russian and 1 American) all chasing the same Sourcing Manager role at J &J in New Brunswick, NJ. The max rate J & J was willing to pay was $45 per hour. This rate is essentially unchanged for the last 3-4 years at J & J and the IT sourcing management team, all of whom are less than 40 years of age, many with tech degrees and new MBAs in non-IT and non-sourcing disciplines, who all seem to think that someone like me, with 25+ years of experience will work for such substandard wages, with NO medical or other benefits and that I would be willing to provide the same high quality of work that they expect from their own, far better compensated FTEs. This is insulting, demeaning and I am almost tempted to take such a role to just once CONFRONT these pathetic excuses for fellow Americans. I do not do so because some day, these same KOOL-AID drinking corporate clowns will find themselves in the same leaky boat.

American managers are JUST as complicit in this race to the bottom economic backstabbing as the Indian staffing agencies. In fact, it is the client comnpanies who CREATED these Indian staffing agencies to drive down the cost of American labor and if, as in some cases, they are unable to effectively do that, then they offshore the jobs once filled so proudly by the people I used to defend while in uniform.

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Shaun Snapp September 2, 2012 at 2:53 pm

Ayn Rand is a problem because she is not a respected philosopher is not taught in philosophy departments yet is widely respected among conservatives. I don’t think her wide following in conservative circles has to do with the quality of her work, but as with Milton Friedman, because her writing can be used to justify exploitation. I have no doubt that Ayn Rand is very appealing to the masters of the universe residing in Wall Street. What would we all do without more of their genius in creating innovative financial products?

Her premise, that more humans need to be taught to be more selfish, is a real problem. Does anyone think this is a real issue? Christopher Hitchens once remarked, “do we really need a book to teach people to be more selfish?”

Allen Greenspan was huge admirer of Ayn Rand, in fact he was almost an Ayn Rand deciple, and this one of his motivations for being extremely anti-regulation. It is one reason he blocked Brook Lee Bourne, head of the OTC from regulating scam financial instruments. Greenspan’s philosophy was that “the market” would work it all out.

http://reviews.wikinut.com/Inside-Job%3A-How-the-Financial-Collapse-was-Engineered/3mazdvoz/

Of course the reason Greenspan was in his position in the first place was becuase he held this view. Before Alan Greenspan was even made head of the Fed, he was known as a person you could pay to write any opinion you liked. In fact most the economics profession works this way. The modern economist mostly writes about the “free market” about the “strong dollar” so they can get paid by elite interests. In fact one of America’s great exports is elitist economics, the type of claptrap that Milton Friedman excelled at writing. Anyone who wants to see this type of intellectual corruption can head over to the Harvard economics webpage or to one of my favorite fake economic think tanks that follows no procedures in their “research,” the Hoover Institute.

http://www.hoover.org/

Greenspan essentially, as do many conservatives buy into the “law of the jungle,” and the inherent elitism that is at the heart of Rand. I see Rand as basically an intellectual reactionary to the Soviet Union, where she immigrated from. Many Russians are like this due to the totalitarianism of the Soviet Union. However, the Soviet Union was never actually communist, so many Russians that react to “communism” and become extreme individualists are just reacting to a totalitarian system, not to the principles that the Soviet Union say they held. Communism was just the sugar to make the pill of a badly run totalitarian system go down easier. Reading about the Soviet Union its amazing how the leaders were able to get away with so much, simply by promising a future utopia. Chomsky once referred to the Soviet Union as a prison…..but with a social safety net.

I am arguing for a highly regulated economy, but I am not sure about command driven. If you mean centrally planned, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that regulation is not only good, but the hallmark of a civilized society. Health laws, labor laws, environmental laws, securities laws, zoning laws. These are all what societies enact when they reach a more advanced state. The US is regressing and the elite are intent on moving towards a model with extremely high income inequality. Therefore, our regulations have been undermined to reflect our new lower state. Most of the people on the other side of these issues are businesses and their sympathizers who want no regulation and want the law of the jungle to predominate. Rich people do well with the law of the jungle, so the wealthy tend to see regulation as getting in the way of what they want to do. So regulation is criticized as “killing jobs.” Many forms of regulation kill jobs. For instance, child labor laws kill many jobs currently. There are huge number of children who could be working in sweat shops again and adding to the economy, if we would only repeal child labor laws. I think Gingrich recently said that child labor laws should be repealed. Of course, his children won’t be working in sweat shops, becuase he is rich. However, no conservative who is in power actually believes in the free market. That is why doctors, lawyers, investment banks, drug companies, media companies, defense contractors have very powerful anti-market laws and legislation that protects them from the free market. Not one of them, each and every one of them has these laws. When the elite speak of a free market, they mean for you and your kids. They want the nanny state for themselves.

Getting to your other comment. I thought your mail had a lot of great content about HP. I am amazed that HP manages to lose money. They really just are a marketing channel for products that someone else does the work on. Foxconn whatever Chinese contract manufacturer makes to their spec (or sometimes a generic spec) and makes 2 to 3% profit. HP then resells the time to a retailer and takes most of the profit. HP does very little R&D now. How do you lose money on that deal?

I agree with you that its bad state and will get worse. However, I think the citizens did in some way choose it. They did not learn the lesson of Venice, the longest continual government in human history. The lesson is that elites cannot simply just be trusted by must be watched. They have voted for politicians that it should have been obvious only catered to elite interests. The absolute lack of accountability in the banking system from the financial crisis of 2008 which was entirely fraud driven, tells me that Americans have learned very little. Obama was elected, and was immediately co-opted by elite interests. He places guys like Gietner, Summers into positions of power, that is the same people who were responsible for the crisis in the first place.

As for your final comment, its completely true. Every initiative at IBM, Accenture or other companies which is directed towards bringing in more foreign workers has as its primary directive the reduction of the cost of labor. They continue to bring people in, even with a very high unemployment rate, which is probably around 22% (official government stats are rigged as is pointed out by Shadowstats)

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-461-july-employment-and-unemployment

However, for the wealthy, labor rates can always be reduced a bit more. As long was we keep voting for people that put the “job creators” first, and that cater to exclusively to elite interests, nothing will change.

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Paul C September 24, 2012 at 2:54 pm

Sen. Chuck Schumer of NY State just introduced new legislation to further exacerbate the unemployment rate of US IT workers. It’s called the BRAINS Act (I don’t know what the acronym stands for). What it does is open up many thousands more H1B visas to non-American workers, thereby putting further strain on an already over-stressed and underemployed talent pool here at home.

As I’ve said many times, I believe there is NO shortage of U.S. educated, trained and experienced IT professionals. What there is is a shortage of Americans who are willing to work for substandard incomes. Those some jobs are now being “reserved” for Indians, who then hire more Indians who hire more, especially from Indian owned and operated staffing agencies. Obviously, this then maintains the continuity of an already vicious cycle.

As you said in your comment above, we need to fire the politicians who do this “to us.” Sadly, that won’t happen, especially in states and areas that have now become ever more dependent on federal programs.

Vinny August 23, 2012 at 9:55 pm

I’m an Indian American and I completely agree with everything that has been said on this article. The very basis of recruiting is communication and when a recruiter does not have that than they have no business in recruiting. And in fact it goes much beyond recruiting, they have literally corrupted every field that they have touched. As an Indian American the activities of these foreign Indians has impacted me negatively as well. I have genuine 6 years of programming experience and graduated from UCLA with BSc in computer science. Yet during the job seeking process I have to compete with these OPTs from no name schools who are mostly foreign Indian students faking 7 or more years of experience thus having better chance of getting their resume selected. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head as to the core reasoning behind their behaviour, and has to do with upbrining with lack of resources where the culture promotes you to be unethical to survive. America does not have corruption at lower levels yet, so we never learned these traits to pull a fast one on companies or other individuals. These Indians mistake their corrupt assets for intelligence and think American are retarded to not be able to figure out what’s happening to them while they are being robbed blindly. I’m glad you are putting this out their to inform the masses as it is much need.

One of the biggest scam is the Indian owned IT consulting companies. These are body shoppers in true sense. They bring in OPT(foreign Indian/Nepali/Sri Lankan students), go through some half a** training program which is usually outsourced to India, pump up their resumes with 7 years of experience and push them out for senior level jobs. Jobs that qualified Americans should be having. These students are obviously being paid pennies. They get roughly about $25-30/hr for contracts that are $90/hr. More that double gets eaten by the companies. One might ask why these employees stay with such companies, the catch is immigration. In actuality this business model completely revolves around exploitation of foreign students/workers for exchange of filing their H1bs and then green cards. It’s much easier for a foreign student to obtain his green card while staying with one company rather than jumping ships so they stay on avg of 5-6 years while being completely exploited. USCIS does have a mechanism in place which scrutinizes the process of filing for a green card of a foreign national employee. You can’t just file for one, you as an employer have to make an effort in finding an American employee for the position. Though this might sound as a problem for these companies and a safety net for American employees, in actuality it is nothing more than a slight inconvenience. You bring in 4-5 American citizens for an interview, could be your friends or whatever and reject them, hence proving you were not abe to find a qualified American for the job, and should be allowed to file a green card of this foreign student or bring in an H1b. Once USCIS sees 4-5 of these rejection they automatically assume you made a genuine effort to bring in an American and approve your case. Companies such as Wipro, Infosys(which is publicly traded on NYSE) do these without any hesitation. US is a jackpot, a gift that never stops giving for these type of companies.

I believe one of the comments said that Indians have some sort of an agenda against whites because India was colonized by British, I don’t agree with that sentiment at all. Indians screw everyone equally! No discrimination there.

This whole issue is actually a set of issues that need set of solutions. The very first layer to protect against this sort exploitation and unfairness against Americans is the US universities. Not all universities should be allowed to import foreigners. There are a lot of sham universities that bring people from outside, give them an OPT while they still should be students so they can go out and take actual American jobs. Only accredited universities should be allowed to bring in students that actually want to come here for educational purposes. Once they graduate they should have to leave the country immediately as the visa was only for school and not to work. Need to get rid of the whole OPT/CPT schemes. If they are qualified I’m sure they’ll make their way back into the US the right way if there is a need here. Secondly companies need to be more vigilant about hiring candidates. In tough times like these, no Opt/Cpt/H1s should be hired. Only US citizens! I’ve heard claims that there aren’t enough people in US to get the job done. Get real, that’s a bunch of baloney. There is an abundance of talent in US.

It’s very unlikely that these solutions will ever be implemented as I feel that this country has been sold out by its own leaders and bureaucrats. And lobbyist groups have destroyed the US economy in the name of capitalism and globalization. But answers are still out there, and more importantly the actual problems are becoming put into spotlight by folks such as this author and many others.

Good luck.

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RB January 17, 2014 at 5:03 pm

I would just like to remind you that you didn’t really have to work your way in becoming a US citizen. For that matter, probably your parents were able to come here through one of these legal means – the benefits of which you enjoy today. So, stop hating! While I agree that the Indian IT companies have ruined pretty much everything, I want to bring your attention to those individuals who have REAL work experience and a Master’s and / or PhD degree (from many good US schools) that adds value to the American economy. I would encourage you to have an impartial tone when you say something of this sort.

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Chris Davidson October 19, 2012 at 5:31 pm

I am a U.S. IT worker. After 13 years of working the same Systems Admin job, I decided to relocate across the country for better weather. I posted my resume’ on Monster, Career Board and Dice. Little did I know, I opened the can of worms with Indian recruiters. I have been barraged with phone calls from people that I cannot understand. Wanting me to commit to go on interviews, asking me to promise not to take other job opportunities if THEY choose to work with me. I have modified all of my online job profiles to indicate that Overseas recruiters are not welcome. The minute I hear their voice on the phone, I simply state “No overseas recruiters”, and promptly hang up. It has been so infuriating with all of the spam and calls, that I actually found your website, and this article by Googling “Indian IT recruiters”. LOL .

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smayton February 18, 2013 at 10:31 pm

Posting my resume on Monster, Dice, CareerBuilder, etc… of course results in a barrage of calls from Indian recruiters. I used to place my phone number on my resume and within the contact info on these respective job boards. I stopped the practice, and as a result, I get emails only. It is interesting how one Indian recruiter recently wrote and said that he checked through all of my social media accounts (FB, Li) trying to find my phone number.

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Paul C February 23, 2013 at 3:30 pm

Shaun,

I have to disagree with you on the percentage of recruiters who are honest. I think it’s probably less than 1 in 10.

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Neil March 15, 2013 at 8:56 pm

I email each indian recruiter back asking them to “NOW please call me IMMEDIATELY about this ASAP!!!” (indians respond shockingly well to even thinly-disguised urgency), and then list the phone number of the previous indian recruiter.

This way I can have two idiots waste eachother’s time without wasting of mine.

-Neil

P.S. I have also been known to ask indians to call me back at their own listed Fax number, resulting in a barage of emails over the next day or two saying “I cannot get you, your phone just makes beep!” I email back asking what’s their fax # so I can send my resume. I never hear another word.

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Matt September 12, 2013 at 10:12 pm

This story is so funny, I am tempted to do it too. Glad to hear I am not alone to feel the pain. I feel so relieved to know there are other people who do not believe the story of not enough skilled US workers, which in my opinion has been invented by large corporations to pay 3rd world country wages.
Obviously this has nothing to do with Indian or non Indian, as they are the first victims of themselves, blackmailed in order to get a visa. The problem of these unethical behaviors is that they are contributing to wipe out all the achievements that people has fought for centuries in the western countries (see French revolution for example) and take the large population back to the bronze age.

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Shaun Snapp September 13, 2013 at 5:03 pm

Very nice observations. There are many issues at play. One is the unending class war and need for continual profits with little effort, that is at the heart of much American business. You are right to say that the achievements of for instance labor standards and safety standards are being eroded. The entire outsourcing of manufacturing to China is the statement by business that they have not respect for labor, safety or environmental regulations that the US passed years ago. The erosion you speak of is multi dimensional. It can be seen as an Indian issue in that India never developed a concept of respect for labor. In India you are allowed to do — whatever you can get away with doing. Employees are there for the elites to be exploited. When India received its “independence” this simply means elite Indians replaced the British who were at the top of the food chain. The labor fights that do occur in India are brutal affairs, just as the US labor battles were brutal affairs a hundred years ago. In the US cops, paid off by corporations brutally beat both male and female protesters. The problem is that Indian recruiters are exporting Indian labor practices to the US. Indian contracts consistently show zero respect for the concept that the employee has any rights — because the people that work for Indian recruiters are either in India, or are recent immigrants from India to the US. Their frame of reference is one of extreme labor exploitation. An example of an Indian subcontract agreement is analyzed here:

http://www.scmfocus.com/sapprojectmanagement/2012/05/contract-clauses-to-watch-out-for-part-2/

Corporations tend to push the asinine concept of an ever expanding pie. However, there are so many IT jobs to go around and there is a certain pay level which is based upon supply and demand. H1B visas are designed to erode the pay that companies have to pay for their hires. IT workers are not politically organized, so they cannot limit H1B visas and therefore, IT wages paid are set to decline. With the introduction of so many IT recruiters who follow an extreme model of labor exploitation, contractual terms are in danger of becoming more like Bangalore contracts than US contractual terms. US born workers are expected to smile as all this is happening — if they do not smile as their standards of living are reduced — then they will be branded malcontents, and possibly racists. As Britain followed a divisional strategy to conquer India (pitting regions against one another), US corporations divide labor in order to get the absolute lowest possible wages. This way executives who are now paid 400 times what the average worker is, can maybe move up to 450 times, and then possibly 500 times.

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Paul Connors September 13, 2013 at 5:21 pm

Shaun:

Regarding your last comment stream, that is why, as I posted here before, it is ESSENTIAL for ALL American IT contract workers to THOROUGHLY READ the employment contracts handed to them by Staffing Agencies (regardless of whether they are Indian or American owned). Too many people sign these, assuming they are standard boilerplate agreements, when in fact many are not and contain clauses that are morally and legally questionable and therefore, NEGOTIABLE.

Just this week, I turned down 9 staffing agencies that presented me the same 3 jobs. The only consistent piece of the pie was the insultingly low labor rate(s) presented to me by each of the Indian recruiters. As always, I had difficulty containing my anger, but I have finally concluded that I will no longer deal with any recruiter who has an accent that oozes Indian and will hang up on them. Likewise, I no longer intend to answer ANY emails from any Indian IT companies.

If that makes me a racist, so be it. I think I’ll make a T-shirt that says:

“I am a Proud RACIST, I do not do business with Indian IT Firms.”
In one of my previous posts I mentioned ARTECH INFORMATION SYSTEMS of Cedar Knolls, NJ. There were several clauses that I negotiated COMPLETELY out of the agreement, either because I knew that I would not tolerate them or because they violated U.S. and most State Labor Laws (most notably the FLSA Act).

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Shaun Snapp September 18, 2013 at 12:16 pm

Yes….well — as long as people don’t complain and don’t share information, these low quality Indian recruiters win. Its not just a few “bad apples.” It is quite difficult to find anyone to say anything complimentary about Indian recruiters. Even Indians vastly prefer working with American or European recruiters over Indian recruiters — just as no one really wants to work for an Indian company. Infosys, Wipro are IT sweatshops and are horribly disorganized in which just about every person I have met (except for the managers) hates their life. This is all based upon the labor standards which exist in India — which are a utter disregard for labor standards. The way that this was supposed to work was that Indians that worked in the US or Indian multi-nationals were supposed to abide by the generally agreed upon standards of the US system. However, they flatly reject these standards and seek to impose Indian standards onto the US system. Infosys and Wipro intend to reduce US employment by as much as possible and to pull out US jobs to become Indian jobs at very low rates maximizing their profits — actually IBM and Deloitte and others are playing the same game.

Indian recruiters have brought Indian approaches to treating workers, which is the workers are utterly powerless. Now there is no content response to these accusations — it is entirely obvious to any person who works in IT. Indians who are workers don’t like talking about it publicly, for obvious reasons (although a few have agreed on this post) but its known. So the only response is the ad hominem attack. There must be something wrong with the person making the proposal.

Here are examples you provide — the clauses violate US Law. Why are Indian recruiting companies introducing clauses that violate US law? Do Indian recruiters have any respect for US law? Clearly not. Its not just Indian recruiters. Infosys frequently includes binding arbitration clauses in its employment contracts — so they can pummel their ex-employees in a kangaroo court of their choosing when employees have legitimate grievances. Why not simply move the arbitration to Bangalore?

Indian recruiters cannot be worked with. I recommend ignoring all emails from Indian recruiters. It workers did not go to college, make an effort to gain content expertise through many hours of study so that they can be exploited by unethical Indian recruiters bent on bringing the caste system to the US.

E. Kenol August 19, 2013 at 12:07 am

Should you use Indian SAP recruiters ??

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Shaun Snapp September 13, 2013 at 5:04 pm

Right, that is the proposal — not if you can help it.

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Comage October 31, 2013 at 2:34 pm

Hi Shaun,

Came across your website, and it has definitely been a very clearly documented post about the reality in the world of recruiters (and especially IT as well).

This has been something that I have been appalled with, yet I hear no complaints from anyone on the Internet about…

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Paul C November 6, 2013 at 4:58 pm

Shaun:

Just today, that is 11/6/13 and in the space of 30 minutes, I received 4 calls from Indian recruiters for the same job at Johnson & Johnson in Raritan, NJ. These were from Indian staffing firms that I had PREVIOUSLY told not to call me ever again. I’d even hit the unsubscribe button(s) on the bottoms of their emails.

They don’t listen.

One of them falsely reported me to NJ Unemployment and that I’d refused a job. This didn’t happen; what I did do was refuse to interview thru them for a job in NYC they wanted to pat $28/hr. for that at bare minimum should have paid $65/hr.
I suppose my “suck my d*ck” comment back to him probably didn’t help.

In any case, I have a friend, an American who is managing director of a US owned IT Staffing agency who suggested that going forward I avoid both AT & T and Verizon for IT/Telecom sourcing roles because their rate cards are so low and he also suggested the same for J & J in NJ for the same reason.

BTW, re: J & J: it seems as if IT Sourcing and procurement roles come up EVERY Monday, week in an week out and I have concluded that it is the direct result of the shitty rates and the way J & J abuses their contractors.

I now tell all recruiters, regardless of where they are from that I am NOT INTERESTED in working for J & J under any circumstances, but especially because the rates are so low and have NOT been adjusted for inflation in at least EIGHT YEARS.

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Paul C November 18, 2013 at 1:35 pm

Shaun,

Here is a link I found on a LinkedIn message today specific to IT and other staffing activities for Procurement by Indian agencies. Needless to say, the article and comments, re-posted by an Indian who was pointing out to his fellow Indian recruiters how negatively they are perceived by candidates here in the USA.

http://blog.computer-fella.com/job-advise/indian-recruiters/

I thought this might serve as an additional form of confirmation about your decision to just not deal with them (if only for language reasons).

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Dee November 18, 2013 at 2:41 pm

I will one-up Paul C. above, in that I received, within 45 minutes last week, 12 separate contacts from Indian recruiters (including one non-Indian, and I don’t mean by name) on the SAME communications lead (marketing, not IT) position with Siemens in Tarrytown NY (not commutable for me). I think you’ll see that certain companies, American and European-owned, are working this system and not to the benefit of the worker.

Some new twists here:
**Certain companies, when they are trying to fill a spot, shop the position to every company they contract with, but Siemens like J&J has pushed this to truly insane levels. But 10 companies is a first.
**Their jumping on this may indicate a certain desperation–too many recruiters chasing too few jobs, all using the same sources and maybe–just maybe–too few good matches.
**Another indicator: the rate was of course low for what I do and the commute near-impossible, but the good news is that a year ago a similar job was shopped to me from Siemens, and the rate is now $10 higher per hour.
**Something I hadn’t experienced before was two different recruiters, same company. I received from two of these firms two separate recruiter contacts. One of the duplicates was from an American company where I had a prior track record–I had worked for them on a year’s contract last year. The first call was from an Indian female who had truly little English. The next call from the same company was an American woman (for real) and as I quickly ascertained, a colleague of the recruiter I had previously worked with. Because I had a track record with them and this was an American, I let her know that an Indian recruiter had contacted me using their name, domain and address. She found that odd but this may indicate one of two things–that American-owned companies (and not just ‘fronts’) are now using Indian call centers, or there’s been a change of ownership.

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Paul C January 11, 2014 at 3:16 pm

Shaun:

I thought I would add another tidbit that is not necessarily the province of Indian recruiters. Many of the staffing agencies, to include those that are American owned that recruit for the big banks and the investment banks in NYC are now requiring what is called a “professional day.” A Professional day is considered 8-10 hrs. MINIMUM and I’ve been told that if contractors balk and try to leave after 8 hrs. because the professional day rate reduces the hourly rate by 20%, they are generally shown to the door.

I tell staffing agencies that state that the client wants a “Pro Day” that I do not agree to work that way and generally pass on those opportunities.

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Dozer January 21, 2014 at 2:52 am

I am utterly appalled by the situation with Indian recruiters. Practically every SAP job posting on Dice is by an Indian recruiter, and the rates are such that a full time position pays more. Why would anyone sign up for this? How is this sustainable?

Effectively, this lower rates for contractors while also reducing wages for full timers and potentially results in off shoring. They wonder where all the jobs went? America has shot itself in the foot.

When you have a cockroach infestation, you can’t blame the roaches, it’s the environment that allowed them to multiply. Friends don’t let friends get into IT, it’s a roach race…

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Dee April 4, 2014 at 12:45 pm

Here’s a radical solution to the Indian body shop business: end H1-B programs. I believe it could be done politically. Candidates calling for an end to H1-B worker visas and in fact all skilled visas except in qualified and narrow ‘genius’ programs (which are not H1-B anyway). Federal regulations start with the Federal contractors first: give them 120 days to end their programs starting on a specific date, 30 days for a plan, 90 days for their own program to hire and train American workers. Then spread it to any employer over 1,000 and encourage states to replicate. Oh yes, no offshoring. I believe the National Front is calling for this in France and they are getting a lot of traction on this. That would end the Indian body shop business, the faked credentials and put a lot of Americans back to work.

BTW if you believe that UI is receding, the numbers are faked (John Crudele in the NY Post has been investigating the DOL for months and their sampling has been proven falsified) and the participation in the labor market is at record lows.

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Goethe April 22, 2014 at 12:42 pm

After posting my resume on dice and then reading this post, I came upon a highly applicable quote by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe translated in the “FIRST GERMAN READER” edited by Harry Steinhauer.
“The pseudo-wise seek to derive some advantage for themselves from every new discovery as quickly as possible by scheming to acquire hollow fame, either through propagation or by increase or by improving or by taking swift possession, perhaps even through pre-occupation, and by such immature behavior they make insecure and confuse true knowledge, indeed they obviously impoverish its finest result, its practical fruition.”

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Paul C June 18, 2014 at 9:24 pm

I agree with Dee’s proposal above. However, I would make it mandatory for ALL employment and require that the states follow suit under the Federal laws.

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